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March 15, 2005
Discrimination Against Fetuses?
I read today about a bill introduced in Maine that is being supported by The Pro-life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians. (Thanks to Ravenwood’s Universe.) Apparently the bill is intended to prohibit the abortion of homosexual babies. There are lots of interesting points to discuss in regards to this.
Jackie Malone, executive vice president of PLAGAL said, “We recognize that at this time the gay gene has not been isolated, but with all the advances of genetics, we believe that it may just be a matter of time before a test for the predisposition of homosexuality will be developed.”
I applaud Jackie Malone’s use of the phrase “predisposition of homosexuality” rather than something like the “gay gene.” Ms. Malone seems to understand that no study has ever produced evidence for any gene that controls sexuality.
For instance, today I looked up an interesting study that came out in 2000 called Genetic and Environmental Influences on Sexual Orientation and Its Correlates in an Australian Twin Sample. It’s quite good for several reasons.
Many studies on this subject in the past have used samples that are very self-selected. For instance, they advertise for twin subjects in magazines oriented to homosexuals. Since it is easy for subjects to discern the probable subject matter of such a study, they are more likely to volunteer if both are homosexual. Such studies have found that if one twin is homosexual, the other is up to 80% likely to be homosexual as well. Other more reasonable values have ranged from 30-60%.
This study, however, contacted twins in the Australian Twin Registry that were already being used for another study and asked them if they would be willing to fill out a questionnaire regarding sex. There was some indication that there was a modest selection bias as people who returned the questionnaire and consent form had slightly more liberal attitudes towards sex, but the difference was small.
Sexual orientation was measured on the Kinsey scale, which measures homosexuality in a more continuous fashion, with scores ranging from 0-6, 0 being completely heterosexual and 6 being completely homosexual. 92% of the subjects scored 0; 94% of the males and 97% of the females scored 0-1, putting aside once again the myth that homosexuals comprise 10% of the population.
Their results were that if one twin was homosexual or bisexual, the other twin was homosexual or bisexual 20% of the time for men and 24% of the time for women. It must be noted that each of these sets of twins were reared together, so those values are based on both genetic and environmental factors.
Interestingly enough, the study also asked questions about childhood gender nonconformity (being a tomboy or a sissy, for example) and found it was much more likely to be experienced by both twins than by only one, but even then the value is nowhere near high enough to suggest that the trait is controlled highly by genetics, or even by environment.
Therefore, not only is it quite hard to pin down one or two simple reasons why people become homosexual, but it’s pretty unlikely that we’re going to come up with a test that will measure a child’s predisposition towards homosexuality before birth.
But even if we did, it’s pretty hard to say that abortion is completely ok in every case, depending completely on the whim of the mother, unless her choice is affected by the child’s possible sexual orientation, or gender, or ethnicity, or whether or not it has Down’s Syndrome for that matter. If abortion is wrong, then it’s wrong no matter why the choice is made. If abortion is OK, then it’s always OK. If we’re just discarding a ball of cells that isn’t a life yet, then who cares if the ball of cells is gay or female or black?
If we’re making it illegal to make discriminatory reproductive decisions after conception, when that zygote or fetus isn’t “really a life,” then what is the real moral difference between that and timing sexual intercourse so that you’re more likely to have a boy, or a white woman only using protection when sleeping with a black man, etc. Are we going to make those things illegal too?
Now I realize that this group is actually pro-life, but they should think seriously about the impact a bill like this might have. All of a sudden the government goes from outlawing certain acts, to outlawing certain acts in the presences of certain thoughts. Having certain thoughts or motivations may be morally wrong, but the sort of society that legalizes those issues is not one I want to live in. Does anyone, pro-life or pro-choice, actually want to head in that direction? I think the group’s efforts might be better spent on protecting all unborn children, rather than just ones that might turn out to be homosexuals. They are all worthy of protection for the same reasons – because they are human.
For people who are pro-choice, but would be for a bill that protects only homosexuals or females or minorities from being aborted, ask yourself how morally logical that is? And while you’re at it, consider the fact that abortion already disproportionately affects minorities, just by being what it is.
Finally, let’s look at the actual text of the bill:
Maine LD 908 An abortion may not be performed when the basis for the procedure is the projected sexual orientation of the fetus after birth, based on analysis of genetic materials of the fetus in which sexual orientation is identified through the presence or absence of a so-called "homosexual gene."
How exactly are we to determine what the basis for the procedure is? Is an abortion automatically determined to be because of sexual orientation if an analysis of genetic material is done and then an abortion is performed? What if the genetic analysis also determined that the fetus was likely to get a disease, or that it was female when the mother wanted a male? Will the government start keeping records on abortions and medical tests and investigating the links between the two? Will they go around interviewing women and their friends and family to find out why they had the abortion? Quite frankly, this seems much more invasive than the government controlling abortions in the first place. Again, does anyone want to give the government control over not just certain things that we do, but also certain things that we think?
Posted by illuminaria at March 15, 2005 01:25 PM
Comments
One should not just focus on genetics here, but the possibility of somatic markers and various additional correlates of homosexuality should be considered too. For instance, a recent report has pointed out that in three samples enriched with male homosexuals, the samples had a roughly 30% prevalence of counter-clockwise scalp hair whorl rotation compared to about 8% of general population-based male controls; scalp hair whorl rotation is of prenatal origin); see my summary of this report here: http://www.amazinginfoonhomosexuals.com/updates_c5.htm#s53b
There have also been some reports of an excess of leftward dermal ridge count asymmetry (fixed prenatally) among male homosexuals, although this find is not robust. Male homosexuals have been repeatedly shown to be more likely than heterosexual men to have older brothers, and the high fraternal birth order effect explains about 25% of the variance in male homosexual outcomes. Both male and female homosexuals are more likely to be non-right-handed, which has neuroanatomical correlates. Given these correlates, other correlates of homosexuality, several other finds yet to come, advances in neurophysiology, and improved analysis of fetal neuroanatomy (see gay-straight brain metabolism differences here: http://www.amazinginfoonhomosexuals.com/updates_c5.htm#s54a ), the possibility arises that by examining fetuses for a clustering of several correlates of homosexuality, one could easily identify fetuses that are far more likely than average to end up being homosexual, and this raises ethical problems concerning how such advanced knowledge could be put to use.
If as in the present, it is legally allowed to abort normal, healthy fetuses -- conceived following a non-incestuous consensual sex act -- at the whim of a pregnant woman who is not medically threatened by her pregnancy, then other forms of abortion couldn’t be more unethical. In the latter scenario, government restriction of some forms of abortion could be justified in special circumstances which threaten social order such as persistent population-level-biased sex-specific abortions, i.e., banning the abortion of fetuses that are highly likely to turn out to be homosexual could be justified if one convincingly argued that society would be much worse off if there were fewer homosexuals around, but this will surely be a very difficult argument to make.
If advanced fetal diagnostics can identify those who are highly likely to turn out to be homosexual, it will be a feminist nightmare come true. On the other hand, widespread abortion of fetuses that are highly likely to be homosexual will at most reduce the prevalence of homosexuals, not eliminate them, given the remarkable phenotypic variability observed among homosexuals.
Posted by: Erik Holland at March 16, 2005 01:06 AM
First, let me say that I am a member of PLAGAL and was active in the discussion that led to our supporting this legislation.
If abortion is not murder, then no, aborting a fetus predisposed to homosexuality (for whatever reason) is not wrong, any more than a woman using contraceptives only when sleeping with a black man is wrong. However, we at PLAGAL believe that abortion IS murder, and therefore, we will support any legislation that aims to restore the protection of the law to the fetus, whom we see as our fellow man. In other words, banning the aborting of gay fetuses is just a step towards banning abortion. For if it is wrong to kill a "gay" fetus, it is surely just as wrong to kill a "straight" fetus. Anything less would be heterophobic!
You make excellent points regarding the criminalization of thought. I personally oppose hate-crime legislation (I don't think PLAGAL takes a position on it) but it is important to realize that a gay man or a black man or another victim of a hate crime already HAS rights under the law. The law already says that it is wrong to beat up a gay person or a black person because the law says it is wrong to beat up a person period; hate crime legislation changes the law to say that it is "more wrong" to beat up some people than it is for others. However, the law right now says that it is not wrong to brutally dismember a fetus. This legislation would (theoretically) give SOME fetuses the right to life. And restoring human rights to the unborn, however piecemeal, really is the primary purpose of our group.
Posted by: Marc at March 16, 2005 10:48 AM
I'm way out there in left field: I support unrestricted, unlimited abortion until birth. So these machinations are clearly on the slippery slope from my point of view. I also realize that very few people agree with me.
Posted by: Kai Jones at March 16, 2005 11:56 AM
Kal -
Don't want to be a troll here, but I always want to ask this of people of your persausion: why stop at birth? What is so magical about moving a few inches down the birth canal that suddenly makes it wrong to kill something? Or are yo ua real Singerite and OK with infanticide?
Posted by: jimbo at March 16, 2005 12:28 PM
I have to agree with Jimbo. Developmentally speaking, the human infant is really, in the words of the author of The Red Queen (forget his name, no time to look it up) nothing more than an external fetus. Why is ok to kill a fetus in the womb but not in the maternity ward? Why does the physical location of the victim make it a crime?
Posted by: Marc at March 16, 2005 01:07 PM
"Now I realize that this group is actually pro-life, but they should think seriously about the impact a bill like this might have"
It's clear they have thought about it. It's a particularly elegant form of pro-life incrementalism. Is the law ridiculous? Yes, but then, that ridiculous nature spills over onto the entire pro-choice paradigm.
I've been saying for years that the proposition of a gay gene threatened to fracture the Left in this manner. When your worldview is based on personal indulgence for everyone, it's inevitable that conflicts will arise between the indulgence of various sub-constituencies. This isn't the first such conflict - feminists versus the adult film industry for instance. There's a coming storm when environmentalism and animal rights start butting heads with the left's insistence on forced egalitarianism - we could elminate urban sprawl and factory farms if we just denied single family housing, eggs, and milk to the lower socio-economic strata. How long before the fact that big cars are safer pits the environmentalists against the consumer safety purists? This is what happens when your whole platform is based on indulging everyone's personal whims, rather than starting from a set of principles.
Posted by: dweeb at March 16, 2005 01:17 PM
Do they not realize that by implying it is morally wrong to abort a child believed to be gay, they are implying it is morally right to abort one believed to be straight? In other words, it's ok to kill a straight baby, but not a gay one.
Posted by: lindenen at March 16, 2005 01:46 PM
Excellent posting.
My guess is that if there was a gay gene, you'd see lots of eugenic abortions. People don't want to go through all the trouble of raising a child and not get any grandchildren out of it. You don't see as many Downs Syndrome kids around today as you used to, for exactly the same reason. Nobody talks about it, but it happens a lot. (Personally, I don't like it.)
On the other hand, as you point out, the gay gene theory is not well-supported by evidence. It also doesn't make a lot of sense from a Darwinian point of view, since homosexuality (as opposed to bisexuality) is a huge fitness cost in terms of descendents, the kind that natural selection tends to eliminate quite quickly.
So, the causes of homosexuality, especially male homosexuality, remain mysterious.
Posted by: Steve Sailer at March 16, 2005 01:59 PM
The distinction occurs at birth because it is only at birth that the mere existence of the baby is a threat to the woman's life and health. Women still die in pregnancy and even during labor and childbirth right here in the US. I'm viewing the child as an unwitting attacker--that is, it's unintentional. It's still a woman's right to defend herself against such attack.
Posted by: Kai Jones at March 16, 2005 02:21 PM
Correction, it is only until birth that the baby threatens the woman's life. After birth anyone can take care of it.
Bring me artificial uteruses and I'll change my mind.
Posted by: Kai Jones at March 16, 2005 02:24 PM
So, Kai, you'd be in favor of women being allowed to go around shooting people as they get into their cars to drive off. These drivers may unwittingly attack and kill a woman in a car accident, and a woman is far more likely to die in a car accident than she is in childbirth. So if she's got the right to kill her unwitting attacker the child, she would certainly have the right to kill her unwitting attacker the driver.
Posted by: Wacky Hermit at March 16, 2005 03:49 PM
"Do they not realize that by implying it is morally wrong to abort a child believed to be gay, they are implying it is morally right to abort one believed to be straight? In other words, it's ok to kill a straight baby, but not a gay one."
Did you not read my post? We at PLAGAL do NOT believe that it is ok to abort a "straight" fetus. We support any legislation that gives any fetus human rights, as a start. Also, this legislation is useful for pointing out how ill-thought out the gay rights movement's alliance with pro-choice feminism is. Why do we, as gay people, who know what it is to be completely dehumanized, ally ourselves with those who visit that same dehumanization on the unborn? It's just insane.
Posted by: Marc at March 16, 2005 09:46 PM
Kai, something like over 90% of abortions are done for conveinence, not because the woman's life is threatened by the fetus. In those rare instances where that is the case, she has the right to have the fetus removed, yes, but the doctors must make EVERY ATTEMPT POSSIBLE to save the unborn child's life. They have TWO patients, the mother and the child, and once the mother is safe they should move to protect the child, AS IS THEIR JOB. (Sorry for the caps I'm getting passionate). There is no reason to dismember the child.
Posted by: Marc at March 16, 2005 09:48 PM
"Also, this legislation is useful for pointing out how ill-thought out the gay rights movement's alliance with pro-choice feminism is. Why do we, as gay people, who know what it is to be completely dehumanized, ally ourselves with those who visit that same dehumanization on the unborn? It's just insane."
I should have added that, by supporting this legislation, we were trying to call attention to how assinine this alliance is, in the hope of changing the minds of pro-choice gays and gay-friendly folks.
Posted by: Marc at March 16, 2005 09:50 PM
Steve Sailer: “On the other hand, as you point out, the gay gene theory is not well-supported by evidence. It also doesn't make a lot of sense from a Darwinian point of view, since homosexuality (as opposed to bisexuality) is a huge fitness cost in terms of descendents, the kind that natural selection tends to eliminate quite quickly.”
Reply: the evidence cited – along with comparable studies – does not refute genetic influences on homosexuality, but shows that additive genetics do not account for the majority of the variance in a homosexual outcome. Such studies reveal – overall – that environmental factors behind homosexuality do not tend to be of the shared family environment-type but are of the non-shared family environment-type, which need not have anything to do with the social environment. A tendency for homosexuality to cluster in some families has repeatedly been shown, and this appears to be due to genetic factors rather than the shared family environment. It has been repeatedly shown that a subset of male homosexuals – namely those with clustering of homosexual relatives among maternal relatives – show evidence for an X chromosome link to homosexuality. Then, you have plenty of interesting preliminary finds such as a report of a two-fold greater prevalence of abnormal alpha(1)-antitrypsin phenotypes among male homosexuals compared to male heterosexuals (unrelated to HIV), statistical evidence for an association of various anomalous sexual interests with the genetics behind Tourette syndrome, and evidence from a DNA scan of 137 families with two male homosexual brothers and nine families with three male homosexual brothers showing that the genetics associated with male homosexuality differ among male homosexuals (Linkages: 7q36, LOD score = 3.45, equal maternal and paternal contribution; 10q25, LOD score = 1.81, only maternal contribution; Xq28, LOD score = 2 for homosexuals with maternal homosexual relatives (no association for the full sample)). There is also evidence from at least two twin-registry studies that the genes influencing sexual behaviors and sexual attractions are primarily the same in men and women.
Such observations, along with several others, make a strong case for the association of homosexuality with genetic factors, even though genetic factors do not account for the majority of the variance in the outcome. It is another thing to explain what these genes are doing and how they persist. For reasons not concise enough to list here, it is unlikely that the relevant genetics are shaping people into homosexuals as in genes shaping fingers or ears. A substantial proportion of the variance in understanding the persistence of homosexuality can be explained by a considerable amount of evidence that female homosexuality is associated with prenatal masculinization; male homosexuality is associated prenatal hypermasculinization (no kidding!); and evidence that since the highest expression of several traits desired in men by women requires the organizational and activational effects of high androgen levels, several traits associated with hyper-androgenization will persist, at least partly due to sexual selection.
For references as to the above, and also for a coherent argument that an understanding of the causes of homosexuality is not so mysterious, you should read the book mentioned here:
http://www.amazinginfoonhomosexuals.com/nature_of_homosexuality.htm
Posted by: Erik Holland at March 17, 2005 12:46 AM
Erik,
Put aside the relatively small samples used in genetics, and look at the REALLY large samples used in evolutionary biology. Look at Peter Ewald's work - more and more traits and diseases thought to be genetic are being reconsidered. If opposable thumbs didn't help get more of one's genes into the next generation, nobody would be able to use a Playstation.
Kal, in the law, attacks require INTENT. You think the potential threat to the mother's life ends at birth? Tell that to the Menendez brothers.
Posted by: dweeb at March 17, 2005 10:40 AM
The name is Kai, not Kal. That's K as in knife, A as in attack and I as in individual.
Wacky Hermit, you're not distinguishing between a hypothetical threat and an actual individual threat. Carrying a fetus and enduring labor and delivery are active, actual threats to the pregnant woman. There can be permanent as well as temporary negative health effects, including death, up to the moment of delivery. And many of these effects are completely unpredictable: the sister of a co-worker, who had been in good health before pregnancy, suffered a heart attack on the delivery table and died.
Marc, since it's my position that it's often impossible to tell when the threat will become imminent, it's also my position that an abortion at any time can be justified as self defense, even if the reasoning at the time was personal convenience.
dweeb, got a cite for that law? As far as I'm aware you are justified in defending against attacks that are unintentional (see, for example, the concept of negligence). I'm not blaming the baby, it didn't choose; the fact that pregnancy is often harmful and sometimes lethal is simply a fact, regardless whether you attribute it to design or evolution.
Posted by: Kai Jones at March 17, 2005 03:11 PM
Marc,
I understand the use of incremental legislation to try to slide abortion law towards protecting more and more lives. It's a method used by pro-lifers a lot, and most are not afraid to admit it.
The idea generally is that if you call attention to the humanity of one group, it becomes harder to disregard the humanity of another group and you're more likely to get legislation protecting that next group. An example would be laws to restrict partial birth abortion. If you pass it, people begin to consider why it would be OK to kill an 8 month old fetus completely in the womb, when it's not OK to kill an 8 month old fetus with only it's head in the womb.
Any dividing of abortion regulations based on placement or age of the fetus does this.
However I fail to see how dividing abortion regulations based on gender, sexual orientation, or race would do this. No one is going to say "hmmm...gay fetuses are human, so hetero fetuses must be human too. Why aren't we protecting them?" Almost everyone who hears about this law, whether they are for it or not, are going to think that it is being done for social reasons, not moral reasons. Ie, we want to prevent discrimination against gays and females, or we want to prevent the population distribution from becoming uneven.
Thus I don't really think it's progressing us towards saving more lives.
Yes, we MIGHT save a few lives, but to me, it's not worth giving the gov. the power to make things legal or not based on motive.
Posted by: Illuminaria at March 17, 2005 05:38 PM
Kai,
I fully accept that pregnancy is a threat to a woman's life and health, even though it is less than it used to be.
I don't think that this is a reason to allow any woman to abort her baby for any reason, unless there is a certain life and death issue.
First of all, the woman most likely made the choice to have sex in the first place. Possible injury or death during pregnancy is just one of the risks that she took by doing that.
Second of all, I simply don't believe this theory put forth that a woman is a completely morally distinct being apart from any child she is carrying, with the right to make decisions for herself apart from her baby. Once she's pregnant, she has a responsibility to care for that child. It doesn't matter if it's unfair or unpleasant or risky, that's just the way it is. And keep in mind, I'm saying this as a woman. I'm not some evil old man who wants to keep women pregnant and barefoot and doesn't care about them.
Posted by: Illuminaria at March 17, 2005 05:45 PM
Illumanira, as I said in my first response, I know not many people agree with me--I hold an extreme opinion. But it's a consistent, defensible opinion that is not dependent on determining whether a fetus has rights, or when a fetus becomes a human (both of which were important to me in formulating my opinion).
Short of my extreme opinion, we balance rights all the time. Why do people find it so hard to balance the rights of a woman against those of her in-utero baby? I haven't seen anyone here yet raise the argument about kidney donation--if my neighbor needs a kidney, am I obligated to donate mine? If not, distinguish this from pregnancy (without resorting to punishing a woman for having sex).
I see your statement about the woman's choice to have sex as punishing her behavior. There's no similar argument about men who get STDs not having the right to kill the bacteria (not trying to equate babies with bacteria).
Again, bring me the artificial uteruses and I'll back off my position--the minute you can transplant a 4-week fetus to an artificial uterus at no risk to the pregnant woman, I'll be in favor of limiting abortion. Or if you could transplant it to a man.
Posted by: Kai Jones at March 17, 2005 06:10 PM
Kai,
I understand that that is your opinion and that you understand that it is extreme. I'm not necessarily trying to convince you, but explain my position.
However I am pointing out that unlike some people, for me the issue is not how great the risk is or whether the baby had any intent or whatever. (Although when it comes down to likely death for the mother, I'm ok with abortion, because then we're pretty much sacrificing a life for a life, instead of a life for convenience.) For me the issue is responsibilities that people have towards their family, even family that they didn't choose and don't want. There's plenty of people who don't like their parents, and they certainly didn't choose them, but they still have an obligation towards them. At least with babies, they can choose whether or not to do the thing that gets them.
I'm not punishing the woman's behavior, the natural consequences of the world are punishing her behavior. Just because she wants the right to have sex without the responsibility of dealing with the possible consequences, doesn't mean that she has the right to kill an innocent life. That child is not some parasite, it's her son or daughter and she has a responsibility towards it.
If I were God and were setting up the world, I'd make it so that you could only get babies if you really wanted them, but I'm not, so I can't.
I realize that it's unfair that a man does not have to face this same dilema. I do think that a man has the same responsibility towards his offspring as a woman, but I recognize that he does not face the same risks to his health. That is not fair, and that's too bad. But, as my momma always told me, life isn't fair.
Unfairness is not an excuse to ignore morality. I think it's really unfair that I work hard and am kind of poor, but that doesn't mean it's ok for me to steal from Bill Gates.
Posted by: illuminaria at March 17, 2005 11:13 PM
dweeb: Different study designs require different minimum sample sizes for adequate statistical power. For instance, in medical research, great insights can be derived from single case studies on the one hand but meaningful results require samples of tens of thousands of individuals in some other cases; i.e., apparently small sample sizes do not necessarily imply low statistical power. It is curious that you invoke evolutionary biology: homosexuality is apparently of little relevance to the evolutionary biology of sexually reproducing species, yet sociobiological hypothesis on the origin of homosexuality typically invoke genetic influences. Besides, few – especially those who have examined homosexuality – believe that homosexuality is primarily due to genes. The evidence within the past decade or so has increasingly clarified various correlates of homosexuality, and as my previous post outlines, evidence from multiple sources points to the fact that a significant – even though small – proportion of the variance in homosexual outcomes is accounted for via genetic influences.
Posted by: Erik Holland at March 17, 2005 11:47 PM
There's one source of difference, then: I don't agree that you have duties or obligations to familiy that you didn't choose, whether the choice is of the duty or of the person. I don't have anything to do with my parents, nor do I feel any obligation toward them. Nor any other relatives, except the ones I have chosen to retain in my life.
The point about life not being fair in outcomes between men and women is that because of that unfairness, women get more rights than men do as to what to do in case of unwanted pregnancy. They get to choose abortion without needing permission from the putative father or anyone else, in my opinion. Can you think of any other circumstance in which you would enshrine in law the unconsenting obligation to risk one's life and health for another's benefit? I return to the kidney analogy: must I undergo the risks of surgery and the loss of an important organ just because my neighbor needs one? If you distinguish between the unborn baby and the neighbor, then why?
Posted by: Kai Jones at March 18, 2005 04:57 PM
Yes, I suppose that's the difference then.
My unborn baby is my child, my neighbor's just some guy.
Making things more fair between men and women may be nice, but that's not enough to overcome morality.
Posted by: illuminaria at March 18, 2005 08:04 PM
Kai, given your statement about your parents, your position is ironic, because if they could have foreseen your apparent disdain for them, they might have wanted to abort you.
If you want to talk about fairness between men and women, then start by capping all paternity suits at the going rate for an abortion - if one party can wash their hands of responsibility for a few hundred dollars, why shouldn't the other party be able to?
There are plenty of circumstances where one is forced to face risk for the benefit of someone else. If a hydraulic actuator on a fully loaded airliner fails, creating a major risk that it can't land safely, and the pilot straps on a chute and bails out, you can bet he'll face criminal and civil sanctions. Of course, no one forced the pilot to take off, but then no one forced anyone to engage in activity likely to result in conception. No one forces someone to become a police officer or firefighter, but they can be prosecuted for refusal to face certain risks to protect/save others once they're on the job. That's the situation here - a person VOLUNTARILY embarks on a path with a certain probability that they may be responsible for the safety of another, and face some elevated risk in meeting that responsibility.
You have no duty to your parents, but the law held them responsible for you until you were 18, because they voluntarily roled the dice on conceiving you. That's what abortion is - asking the casino called life for your chips back after you bet and lost, and when, even with NO contraception, the odds were 95% in your favor. Talk about a have your cake and eat it too attitude. See, this is why, as Camille Paglia said, the pro-choice crowd will never be able to claim the moral high ground - what they are clamoring for is self indulgence without consequences.
Posted by: dweeb at March 21, 2005 05:29 PM
Kai-
In regards to balancing a woman's rights with those of the unborn, it seems to me that whenever two people's rights need to be balanced against each other, the most fundamental right wins. The right to life is THE most fundamental right, without which there could be no other rights.
As for not having any responsibility to your family, it is hypocritical of you or anyone to take this stance as you yourself have benefited immeasurably from society's belief that parents DO have a responsibility to care for their children. Who fed you, clothed you, and gave you shelter as a child? Your parents. If they had not, they would have been thrown in jail. Now that you are an adult and capable of providing for yourself, you stand opposed to the very laws that ensured your survival as a child! How do you respond to that?
Posted by: Marc at March 23, 2005 01:13 PM
"Almost everyone who hears about this law, whether they are for it or not, are going to think that it is being done for social reasons, not moral reasons. Ie, we want to prevent discrimination against gays and females, or we want to prevent the population distribution from becoming uneven."
True, but by giving any fetus human rights we set a legal precedent.
Posted by: Marc at March 23, 2005 01:15 PM
to Dweeb and Marc, as a matter of fact my parents didn't always feed, clothe, or shelter me. Surely you're aware that not all parents are good parents? There were many days when the only meal I had was the free school lunch; my mother left us with people for varying periods of time; and my father's greatest claim to having satified his parenting duties is that he never missed sending a child support check--but he was very little involved in my life.
How naive you are to think they would have been thrown in jail! Even parents who actively abuse their children don't always get jail--they just lose custody temporarily and may be required to take a parenting classe, and sometimes they even get their kids back.
My parents both showed me in words and attitude that they blamed me for their short-lived, extremely unhappy marriage--if my mother had chosen abortion they wouldn't have been forced to get married. I certainly wouldn't blame her if she'd made that choice, given a hypothetical in which I'd be aware of it.
As it happens, my mother died a year ago at the relatively young age of 63, after a short illness; I did spend some time with her, and held her while she died. Since my father made clear to me about 10 years ago that he has no interest in me other than to verbally abuse me, I don't see him at all nor do I plan to, short of an abject apology from him.
In contrast to my parents, I have been completely self-supporting since age 20; own a home; married before having children; and have stayed in the same home for their childhood and school years. I am, in fact, a huge success story attributable in large part to the welfare system as it existed in the 1960s and 1970s, plus public schooling, and my own character. And I do credit my mother for deciding not to have an abortion, and for her well-meant and loving (if completely incapable) attempt to parent me.
Posted by: Kai Jones at March 23, 2005 03:07 PM
Kai, before you lump me in with your response to Marc, start reading more carefully. I never said your parents FULFILLED their duty to you, or whether they were punished for failing to do so. I said society placed that duty upon them, even if it wasn't perfect in enforcing its expecations, and the point was that society rightfully did so because they voluntarily chose to risk conceiving you.
I'm sorry you had such lousy parents, but your personal anecdotal childhood experience and your lingering issues over it do not constitute an intellectually honest or logically valid basis for deciding the societal issues under discussion here. Part of what's wrong with society today is too many people want the way the world is run to depend upon their personal grievances. Based on what you've done with your life as an adult, you're one of the last people I'd expect to be predicating positions on issues of societal ethics on your own sense of victimhood.
Posted by: dweeb at March 25, 2005 12:05 PM
dweeb, where do I make any claim that my childhood influenced my opinion on abortion? Cheesey insult, incidentally, accusing me of still having issues and having a sense of victimhood--because obviously anyone who has issues can be dismissed as overly emotional. Don't they have a name for that, when you attack the person instead of the argument? And it's usually done by people who can't address the argument...says more about you than about me.
No, my opinion on abortion is unrelated to my childhood. If you want to blame it on something emotional, you could try to blame it on my two pregnancies and deliveries--both of which I survived, and neither of which do I blame for any lingering health effects. But going through those pregnancies and the deliveries, and reading the books I read and hearing about the experiences of friends and co-workers, did influence me.
So did my religion, which I haven't yet mentioned as I consider it an irrational support for my opinion, as it is based on faith rather than evidence.
Posted by: Kai Jones at March 25, 2005 02:08 PM
Kai, ask yourself, why are the details of your childhood relevant to include here? They aren't, unless they are used to support an assertion on the issues. You don't see anyone else posting their childhood history do you? Hmmm, I wonder why....
**YOU** outlined your opinion on obligations to blood relatives in addressing Illuminaria's arguments about abortion. **YOU** subsequently graced us all with the litany of your childhood experience, clearly to counter Marc's accusatory remarks about your attitude, and rolled in my comments about the reasons for familial obligations in society. Clearly, it constituted a justification for your disregard for your parents and, by extension, for familial obligations in general, thus tying it back to your exchange on abortion. Throughout the thread, your anger is palpable - it's why I chose to respond to you; I find it interesting to respond to angry missives.
Sorry, but your accusations of ad hominem don't fly - I never suggested dismissing your arguments on the basis of any issues you might have. I merely pointed out that such issues, should they exist, are irrelevant to the discussion, as a way of reminding you that airing your family laundry is NOT what this discussion is about. Far from personalizing the issue, I was admonishing you to not do so by hightlighting the irrelevance and lack of propriety in laying your personal luggage on the table.
In other words, your childhood and any issues you may or may not have about it are indeed irrelevant, so leave them outside the door, where they belong.
And yes, when you invoke your own, admittely less than desirable childhood experience, that's playing the victim card, whether you think so or not. If you truly want to keep this on the issue, you'll avoid clouding it up with such irrelevant material. For that matter, your reproductive history which you now managed to work in is also irrelevant, as is your religion, even in the form of veiled allusions. When you say you don't want it to be personal, to quote the Bard, "methinks the lady protesteth overmuch."
So, if there are any other intimate personal details you feel the need to work into the discussion before moving on to a logical airing of the issue at hand, could you just summarize all in one post and be done with it?
Posted by: dweeb at March 26, 2005 02:15 AM
I did assume, Kai, that your parents clothed you and fed you. It wasn't an irrational assumption, however. 90% of children in this country are raised by their own parents.
Dweeb's point remains, however, that society recognize the responsibility of parents to care for their children. Parents who neglect or abuse their children are liable to wind up in jail. The system isn't perfect, but that really doesn't matter to the point that Dweeb and I are trying to make, which is basically that just as the mother of born child has certain obligations to her child, so does the mother of an unborn child to her's.
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